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Re: regarding "just plain works" as a goal
by Leo Mauler 09 Oct '08

09 Oct '08

--- On Wed, 10/8/08, Billy Crook <billycrook(a)gmail.com> wrote: > It runs O.K., but it's not going to turn water > into wine. You just try running the Gimp or > OpenOffice on that Pentium 2, and tell me how > it works out. I'm not going to say it runs fast, but a PII-300Mhz (192MB) laptop I have runs the GIMP decently well, and even OpenOffice.org 2.0. I know this because I recently had to do some website development while out of town, and the laptop managed to do everything I needed. The PII-600Mhz machine has 512MB RAM, so I'd expect it to perform even better than the adequate performance of the laptop. Personally I think you just *assume* that Linux won't run well on older hardware, rather than have any personal experience with running current applications on older hardware. You assume Linux isn't that good on older hardware, so you *arbitrarily* limit what you do with older hardware. > Try some Firefox plugins. Try compiz. Actually, try kde > 4.1 or gnome 2.24. The laptop is running Gnome 2.20.1. Nothing anyone says will make me like the KDE GUI. Compiz requires a high-end graphics card, but its mostly eye-candy, like Aero. As for firefox plugins, the laptop is running a Flash blocker and has and runs Chatzilla as well. > Yes, Linux is better/faster than windows. No, > old crap isn't the right place to show it. Insulting someone else's opinion is a great way to try and get them not to express it to others, I.e., keeping others from being informed. If you wanted others to be informed, you wouldn't have bothered with the insult. > and I find it rather repugnant to hear people say > "Oh yeah, Linux, that's the thing you put on old > computers, right?" No. Stop it. Buy a brand new > machine with Linux on it. When people see Linux > on a slow computer, they see Linux is slow. Yeah, > it's not as slow as the alternatives, but its sill > slow. We're just going to have to differ on this one. People will see the brand new computer and think "so Linux benefits from dual-core processors just like Vista, so why bother switching?" Running Linux on older hardware makes them sit up and notice that the bloat in Vista is missing from Linux. > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 15:04, Leo Mauler > <webgiant(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > There are still FUD trolls out there talking > > about Linux trashing hard drives. > > IT people know that software doesn't irrevocably > damage hard drives. At least they should. God > I hope they do. Funny, you were the one insisting up and down and left and right that the audience coming to the KCLUG booth was computer illiterate middle management, not IT professionals. However, even if the only folks who come by the booth are IT professionals, middle management are still the folks who need convincing, because they control the purse strings. Middle management hears and believes the FUD trolls, so IT has to put together an older PC and point out how it hasn't trashed the hard drive on the demo system. > > and run Linux, people may be tempted to think > > that the PC, not the OS, is what is causing > > it to fly. > > Boot it off of a thumbdrive, and leave the case > open and hard drive blatantly disconnected. > When people ask how that works you'll have > your chance to rant about how fantastic Linux is. The best you can say is a thumbdrive? Yes, lots of room to show off software on a thumbdrive system. > I never said everyone hates Windows, No, you just decided that people didn't want the system in their closet because it was old, forgetting completely that the reason they thought they can't use their closet system was entirely due to Windows not running on it very well. You tried to claim that people don't like old hardware when what they really don't like is Windows. > Immediately cease ranting about hatred of Windows. > I never mentioned any hatred of Windows, Leo > Mauler, and I'd appreciate if you'd get over it. It would have been very easy not to mention Windows, and hatred thereof, if you hadn't been the one to bring it up in the first place. On Wed, 10/8/08, Billy Crook <billycrook(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Right. And so can Windows 98. Old hardware > > is garbage. Garbage is faster today than it > > was a year ago. Thanks for comparing Linux > > to Windows 98. It can run fast on old hardware > > too, and you're just cementing the idea in the > > heads of the public that Linux is what you > > put on garbage computers before the trash > > collector comes to haul them off. That's > > progress. Thanks. I don't even think there's > > a need for this public PR campaign any more. > > Microsoft has done a better job than any of us > > could at making Linux look good. Your very first paragraph made a case for "hatred of Windows", and also tried to put the blame for this case-making on me. I never said that Linux is comparable to Windows 98. You claimed I was making the comparison, when I never said anything of the sort. > Most people don't know what 'OS' means. > People don't like old computers because > old computers are old, and slower than > new computers. You're not going to > argue that fact out of existence. And why are they slow? Because the Windows OS that runs on them is slow. You're taking their ignorance of what is causing the problem and claiming it is the real reason for their troubles. People don't like old computers because they think they can't do anything with them, because the only way they know to do anything with them is with the Windows OS that came with their machine. If they had Linux to bring those old computers back to life, they wouldn't dislike old hardware. An analogy would be a guy who owns an older, working diesel car, and can't afford diesel fuel. He doesn't know about how he can convert used vegetable oil from a local fast food place into (nearly) free biodiesel. Now, does he hate his diesel car because (a) he hates diesel cars, or (b) because he can't fuel the car with fuel the oil companies are pricing out of his ability to pay for it? The correct answer is (b). If he finds out how to make (nearly) free biodiesel fuel from used vegetable oil, he will like his diesel car because he can now make use of his diesel car. > Leo Mauler, you accused me of "insisting that > people should not be informed". That is false, > and libellous. It has never been my goal > to prevent people from being informed. And earlier in this same E-mail message, this message where you claim it was never your goal to prevent people from learning about Linux on older hardware, you said: > I find it rather repugnant to hear people say > "Oh yeah, Linux, that's the thing you put on > old computers, right?" No. Stop it. Buy a > brand new machine with Linux on it. Stop it? As in "do not inform others" about Linux on older hardware? As in the message you claim you aren't saying? You spent a sizable chunk of the original message, and now a few more sentences in this same message, insulting me about my desire to tell people about Linux running on older hardware, in fact telling me to "stop it." You took a demo PC on older hardware as a personal insult. If you didn't want to be thought of as "insisting that people should not be informed", you shouldn't have expressed so much annoyance at the thought of people being informed. On Wed, 10/8/08, Billy Crook <billycrook(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > "[Y]ou're just cementing the idea in the > > heads of the public that Linux is what you > > put on garbage computers before the trash > > collector comes to haul them off. That's > > progress. Thanks. Rather disingenuous to claim that you never intended for people not to be informed when you wrote a huge E-mail to me saying it would be a terrible idea for me to inform people about Linux running on older hardware, and reiterated your "stop it" command within the same message where you tried to claim you didn't want to prevent my message about Linux running on older hardware. Was trying to convince me my idea was stupid somehow a reverse-psychology ploy to get me to do it? > If you're trying to market Linux, it's ability > to run on old hardware is not nearly as attractive > as getting better performance than alternative > software on modern hardware. Apparently you've missed the news of the past few months entirely, so I'll summarize in a single sentence: If you're trying to market Linux in an economy where banks aren't lending any money whatsoever to companies so that they can buy modern hardware, the ability of Linux to run on brand new (i.e., newly-purchased) modern hardware is not nearly as attractive as getting better performance than alternative software on *existing* hardware.

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Internet Access (The Lack Thereof) At ITEC (was Re: regarding "just plain works" as a goal)
by Leo Mauler 09 Oct '08

09 Oct '08

--- On Wed, 10/8/08, Billy Crook <billycrook(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 16:46, Leo Mauler > <webgiant(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > Secondly, every year for the past three > > years there hasn't been reliable free > > wireless Internet on the ITEC Exhibitor > > floor. This means that the option of > > showing people the Internet on the demo > > Linux PC will most likely not be available, > > which prevents people from seeing the > > "blinkenlights" Internet (for good or bad). > > Bring a wire. Find a hole to stick it in. > Convention halls usually have ethernet. I > guarantee there's not going to be hundreds of > people there, and no internet. Not in 2008. You've clearly never been at ITEC if you feel you can make the claim that the Internet is available at the Overland Park Convention Center. I've been there for three years. Personally I can't even remember the Microsoft booth having Internet, to drop a name of a vendor with deep pockets and a vested interest in the Internet itself. Its all business cards, paper forms, business-card-sized CDs, and sneakernet flash memory keys at ITEC, even back in 2007. Internet availability would mean you would get the ITEC attendee to type in their information for you, saving paying a data entry operator back home, but still no one has Internet at ITEC. > If they want to charge, bring a 300 foot cable, > and a router, and walk around telling other > vendors your a nonprofit, and beg for bandwidth. > If you really want it, bring a sign for whoever > agrees that says "we support the KCLUG" for > whoever cooperates. Well, the coffee shop 100 feet away from the entrance to the Exhibitor hall (so we'd need more like a 300 foot Ethernet cable plus another 200 foot Ethernet cable plus some form of signal booster between the two and a power outlet there as well) has Internet kiosks available for free. Everyone at ITEC who needs Internet goes there. I figure if Microsoft couldn't convince a coffee shop which runs Microsoft OSes on PC hardware to share its Internet with their booth, that Internet must not be available. Again, I've been to ITEC. Clearly you haven't, if you think that admission to ITEC is expensive for *everyone*, even to Basic ITEC Attendees. Sometimes they even throw in the Conferences for free. BTW, wouldn't calling KCLUG a non-profit be untruthful? I thought it was just a "not expected to make a profit" organization. Claiming to be a nonprofit while not being a nonprofit can bring on legal troubles.

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Reuse, recycle - Things to do with an old computer… @ Digital Nomads
by JDP/Frogman 08 Oct '08

08 Oct '08

Sent to you by JDP/Frogman via Google Reader: Reuse, recycle - Things to do with an old computer… @ Digital Nomads via MAKE Magazine by Phillip Torrone on 10/8/08 MAKE is participating in a campaign with DELL called Digtal Nomads, my latest post is about things you can do with an old computer... I seem to be magnet for old computers. It’s not a bad thing really — people assume that an old or broken laptop will likely find some use when handed over to me. It’s true. Photo frames, music servers, print servers, robot brains, postage stations, MAME (retro gaming)… whatever, I’ll do something with an old computer before ever consider throwing it out. I’m sure many of you have the same collection somewhere. But the thing I like to do the most when receiving an old laptop is to wipe it completely and set it up for a kid or someone who doesn’t have a computer to use. It’s the most rewarding thing you can possibly do. You never know what will spark a mind to become interested in science and technology but I think a computer increases the odds. I fill the drive with PDFs of some old science texts and bookmarks to all the sites I think are fun and educational. It’s a bit of a lottery ticket approach, maybe these kids will just goof off, but if just a few end up solving some of the challenges ahead because they tuned in early it’s worth the hour or so I spend fixing up these old machines. Read more | Permalink | Comments | Read more articles in Computers | Digg this! Things you can do from here: - Subscribe to MAKE Magazine using Google Reader - Get started using Google Reader to easily keep up with all your favorite sites

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A quite on topic comment regarding "just plain works" as a goal
by Oren Beck 07 Oct '08

07 Oct '08

We have several levels of computer user. Defining them is edgy beyond the basic dividing line between GUI and CLI users. There are many folks who consider either extreme quite viable. and they get a bit -intense in expressing it. Same applies to the "Multimedia" crowd which considers animated blinkenlight and sound/video presentations as preferable to flat text. The devil appears in reconciling a conflict for mundane users in the extreme application biases. One set of websites might be so deadly flat it looks more like a log dump than a web page intended for humans. The other set may replicate "Grand Theft Auto's look&feel." Let me explain the shortest form as to why both extremes affect the Linux world. WE use browsers that may not be "default ready" to handle the "video game replication" websites. Which to the "Video gaming consumers" makes Linux seem a dead duck.. I am damned if I have easy answers beyond the warning scream that if at ITEC for example a walkerby or lookylou idly punches up their favorite website on a demo Linux machine- and they see "placeholders" or "click to see image" or anything other than the site rendering as it does on their Flash laden home machine- WE FAIL.and so does Linux... Same with Audio. -- Oren Beck 816.729.3645

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Re: Midrange Web Browser? (between Firefox and Dillo)
by Sean Crago 07 Oct '08

07 Oct '08

Have you tried simpler Gecko engine based browsers? The fact that they use it on the Nokia Internet Tablets (considerably weaker than your laptop, I'd imagine) implies that you might have more luck trying something like Epiphany. Not sure if that particular project is terribly succesful, but it's a starting point. Opera, though not free, also warrants a try for the same reason. It tends to perform quite well on older and embedded platforms. That said, the first thing I'd try is installing FlashBlock and ad blocking plugins on your existing Firefox install. That generally does the trick for me, on these older machines. It's not the browser but the poorly designed/over-designed flash ads that tend to cause the vast majority of the problem. Of course, there's always Lynx if the above doesn't work. Sean Crago Kathmandu, Nepal

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[Fwd: Reminder: ITEC Kansas City is two weeks away – register now]
by Chris Bier 06 Oct '08

06 Oct '08

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Re: Midrange Web Browser? (between Firefox and Dillo)
by Leo Mauler 06 Oct '08

06 Oct '08

--- On Sun, 10/5/08, Brendan G <moldybeats(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I haven't tried it, but there's a browser out > there called Midori: > http://www.twotoasts.de/index.php?/pages/midori_summary.html > > It's associated with Xfce, who always has their eyes > on lightweight software. I suspect it's probably > nearer to Firefox than Dillo just because it supports > JavaScript, etc., but it might be worth a try. Their website lists the most current version of Midori as 0.0.18. I realize that Linux software, and GPLed software in general, frequently works nicely well before a major version number, but software which doesn't even have a minor version number yet can't possibly be reliable enough for regular use. The Midori site also implies that WebKit is currently rather buggy (a "please don't blame Midori programmers for all the bugs" plea if I ever heard one), a comment on the other "WebKit" messages here which state that tablet-based browsers are moving away from Gecko and towards WebKit, in some cases having been on WebKit for months. Is WebKit a good choice or just an ideological choice?

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Ikea cabinet Linux cluster
by Oren Beck 05 Oct '08

05 Oct '08

http://obscuredclarity.blogspot.com/2008/09/24-core-linux-cluster-in-2999-c… -- Oren Beck 816.729.3645

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Midrange Web Browser? (between Firefox and Dillo)
by Leo Mauler 04 Oct '08

04 Oct '08

On the desktop PCs the slight bloat of Firefox doesn't cause a problem, while giving me lots of fun Firefox features. However, my much older laptop with its limited RAM (192MB) isn't as much fun with Firefox. Dillo is already on DamnSmallLinux and does display webpages, but I was wondering if there was a web browser, on the "free software" rack, with slightly more functionality than Dillo but still not as big as Firefox.

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RE: Men's Health id 73020856
by admin＠Viagra.us 04 Oct '08

04 Oct '08

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