Not being much of an Xen user, I thought I'd ask the list for input. I've been wanting to test out some newer applications and whatnot, but don't want to shake things up on my existing platform. I've considered multi-partitioning and multi-booting, but that would be disruptive in a multiuser set up as mine. I frequently have multiple X Sessions with different users running, so rebooting isn't a good solution. I've been wanting to load KDE4 and start experimenting on it and deciding when to roll it out to my "production" system. So I thought Xen or another virtual machine app might be a good choice. Does anyone currently run Xen, or are there others who have an opinion on how I can have a KDE4 desktop and other newest release software and latest kernel running on on of my X Sessions, and still have the stable production code on other's desktops? Separation of code is important here, but I want to be able to access the common /home and /root directories.
Brian
On Tuesday 08 January 2008, Jack wrote:
I've been wanting to load KDE4 and start experimenting on it and deciding when to roll it out to my "production" system.
I don't think anyone is seriously considering KDE4 in production until at least 4.1
So I thought Xen or another virtual machine app might be a good choice.
Or just install KDE4 alongside 3 and run it on a seperate X server. Failing that, a chroot should work nicely.
Worst case, boot a KDE4 livecd in qemu
--- Luke -Jr luke@dashjr.org wrote:
On Tuesday 08 January 2008, Jack wrote:
I've been wanting to load KDE4 and start
experimenting on it and deciding
when to roll it out to my "production" system.
I don't think anyone is seriously considering KDE4 in production until at least 4.1
No but I want to be comfortable with it before I get to that point.
So I thought Xen or another virtual machine app
might be a good choice.
Or just install KDE4 alongside 3 and run it on a seperate X server. Failing that, a chroot should work nicely.
I'm really looking for solutions that allow me to truly keep the codebases separate. I don't want KDE4 and other apps installed in the same environment as my stable codebase. Is there something wrong with installing and running Xen and other virtual machines? Yes, chroot might be an option, although I've never run an XServer in it before. Running from CD isn't an option, remember I have to leave logged in users up while I'm doing my testing on the same machine. I would have thought though that this is a perfect scenario for virtual machines. And while on the subject of VMs, is it possible to load Xen, and then do a restore of say Windows XP Pro into a virtual machine? It would be nice to free up that partition and do away with dual booting. Not that the machine has been booted into XP ever, but it's there taking up space, jic.
Thanks for your input, Brian
Jack wrote:
Is there something wrong with installing and running Xen and other virtual machines?
Nope.
And while on the subject of VMs, is it possible to load Xen, and then do a restore of say Windows XP Pro into a virtual machine?
Restore? As in a restore from backup? In theory this might work, but I would recommend doing a clean install. You also need to make sure that you are running this on a newer processor with all the latest virt extensions for this to be a viable option for you.
On Jan 9, 2008 3:09 AM, Jack quiet_celt@yahoo.com wrote:
Running from CD isn't an option, remember I have to leave logged in users up while I'm doing my testing on the same machine.
I think you missed a bit of Luke's idea for using a CD, as in use a CD image inside of QEmu - which means you wouldn't even need to tie up the CD drive for it and you also wouldn't be bootnig the full machine on it. You'd have the full OS of what ever you want running, and assuming you are running on x86 of some sort it should run ok.
Jon.
On Wednesday 09 January 2008, Jack wrote:
Yes, chroot might be an option, although I've never run an XServer in it before.
Neither have I. Usually I just run the X server on the main system while having the clients (KDE et al) in the chroot.
Running from CD isn't an option, remember I have to leave logged in users up while I'm doing my testing on the same machine. I would have thought though that this is a perfect scenario for virtual machines.
Yeah, that's why I said Qemu, which is a virtual machine. Just run 'qemu -cdrom SomeLiveCD.iso' and you're good to go.
This scenario is one of the reasons that Virtualization has taken such a strong hold. It allows you to have a single machine and run multiple development environments with different levels of OS and layered products on a single H/W box. What you want to do is perfect for virtualization. I have not personally used Xen but know a few people that do and have no problem with it and in fact are thrilled with it.
I say go for it.
Phil
Not being much of an Xen user, I thought I'd ask the list for input. I've been wanting to test out some newer applications and whatnot, but don't want to shake things up on my existing platform. I've considered multi-partitioning and multi-booting, but that would be disruptive in a multiuser set up as mine. I frequently have multiple X Sessions with different users running, so rebooting isn't a good solution. I've been wanting to load KDE4 and start experimenting on it and deciding when to roll it out to my "production" system. So I thought Xen or another virtual machine app might be a good choice. Does anyone currently run Xen, or are there others who have an opinion on how I can have a KDE4 desktop and other newest release software and latest kernel running on on of my X Sessions, and still have the stable production code on other's desktops? Separation of code is important here, but I want to be able to access the common /home and /root directories.
Brian
On Jan 8, 2008 1:33 PM, Jack quiet_celt@yahoo.com wrote:
Not being much of an Xen user, I thought I'd ask the list for input. I've been wanting to test out some newer applications and whatnot, but don't want to shake things up on my existing platform. I've considered multi-partitioning and multi-booting, but that would be disruptive in a multiuser set up as mine. I frequently have multiple X Sessions with different users running, so rebooting isn't a good solution. I've been wanting to load KDE4 and start experimenting on it and deciding when to roll it out to my "production" system. So I thought Xen or another virtual machine app might be a good choice. Does anyone currently run Xen, or are there others who have an opinion on how I can have a KDE4 desktop and other newest release software and latest kernel running on on of my X Sessions, and still have the stable production code on other's desktops? Separation of code is important here, but I want to be able to access the common /home and /root directories.
I would recommend downloading/register for VMWare Server which is free (Linux/Windows).
I am a consumer of Xen. One of the web hosting companies that I use uses it. Due to terms of service and such, I haven't poked at it much, but it seems to be working well. I can't say more than that about it.
As for the VMWare recommendation, not sure if you need to have VMWare Server. Workstation does pretty well and has some useful features that VMWare Server doesn't, like snapshots and cloning if memory serves.
If you're deploying virtualization in a production environment, remember that virtual machines are not firewalls. The recommended practice is to use the "separation of concerns" with virtual machines, that is don't put confidential information in a vm on a system where there is also a publicly accessible web site and so on.
Others have addressed KDE 4 so I'll skip that.
As for virtualization, I would recommend KVM which is the accelerated code-base of QEmu. For example, you would modprobe -i intel-kvm and then run the same syntax as the earlier posted who used qemu. It requires that your processor has VT support.
As for Xen, kernel developers seem to agree that Xen will never be merged in to mainline because its patches are far too intrusive and manipulative. That, and I've read a number of blogs about bizzare hardware issues. In the web hosting space it makes a lot more sense--the desktop space is just too video and audio driver-ladden.
On 1/8/08, Jack quiet_celt@yahoo.com wrote:
Not being much of an Xen user, I thought I'd ask the list for input. I've been wanting to test out some newer applications and whatnot, but don't want to shake things up on my existing platform. I've considered multi-partitioning and multi-booting, but that would be disruptive in a multiuser set up as mine. I frequently have multiple X Sessions with different users running, so rebooting isn't a good solution. I've been wanting to load KDE4 and start experimenting on it and deciding when to roll it out to my "production" system. So I thought Xen or another virtual machine app might be a good choice. Does anyone currently run Xen, or are there others who have an opinion on how I can have a KDE4 desktop and other newest release software and latest kernel running on on of my X Sessions, and still have the stable production code on other's desktops? Separation of code is important here, but I want to be able to access the common /home and /root directories.
Brian _______________________________________________ Kclug mailing list Kclug@kclug.org http://kclug.org/mailman/listinfo/kclug
Jason D. Clinton wrote:
Others have addressed KDE 4 so I'll skip that.
As for virtualization, I would recommend KVM which is the accelerated code-base of QEmu. For example, you would modprobe -i intel-kvm and then run the same syntax as the earlier posted who used qemu. It requires that your processor has VT support.
As for Xen, kernel developers seem to agree that Xen will never be merged in to mainline because its patches are far too intrusive and manipulative. That, and I've read a number of blogs about bizzare hardware issues. In the web hosting space it makes a lot more sense--the desktop space is just too video and audio driver-ladden.
Xen was merged into the mainstream kernel last July(ish).
If the distro you use comes with Xen and management tools for Xen then that is probably the best option.
On 1/10/08, D. Hageman dhageman@dracken.com wrote:
Xen was merged into the mainstream kernel last July(ish).
Xen as a guest support is mainline but for i386 only (useless on modern hardware in a datacenter) with 2.6.23 being the first release of this. The hypervisor stuff is still thoroughly intrusive and unlikely to go in any time soon.
If the distro you use comes with Xen and management tools for Xen then
that is probably the best option.
All the distros with Xen hosting support are providing special kernels that have the giant patch sets applied to them.
Jason D. Clinton wrote:
On 1/10/08, *D. Hageman* <dhageman@dracken.com mailto:dhageman@dracken.com> wrote:
Xen was merged into the mainstream kernel last July(ish).Xen as a guest support is mainline but for i386 only (useless on modern hardware in a datacenter) with 2.6.23 being the first release of this. The hypervisor stuff is still thoroughly intrusive and unlikely to go in any time soon.
My understanding is the original poster wanted a separate environment to work with KDE4. Do you really think they are a) running in a datacenter or b) running something other then x86 hardware?
If the distro you use comes with Xen and management tools for Xen then that is probably the best option.All the distros with Xen hosting support are providing special kernels that have the giant patch sets applied to them.
I won't argue this point. I will say this: if the distro is confident enough to ship the software and is willing to support it with updates, then it is better to stick with what your distro supports then start mucking with your config and turn your machine into a "non-standard" box. I see quite a few people have trouble with linux because they start with a nicely built distro and the first thing they do is start pulling out tarballs of source and compiling software to install.
On 1/10/08, D. Hageman dhageman@dracken.com wrote:
Jason D. Clinton wrote:
On 1/10/08, *D. Hageman* <dhageman@dracken.com mailto:dhageman@dracken.com> wrote:
Xen was merged into the mainstream kernel last July(ish).Xen as a guest support is mainline but for i386 only (useless on modern hardware in a datacenter) with 2.6.23 being the first release of this. The hypervisor stuff is still thoroughly intrusive and unlikely to go in any time soon.
My understanding is the original poster wanted a separate environment to work with KDE4. Do you really think they are a) running in a datacenter
I'm making the point that 2.6.23's token Xen guest support is useless and that Xen--in general--is still considered somewhat unstable making it an unattractive choice *even* in the datacenter where Xen has the biggest use-case. If you need binary-only drivers for NVidia graphics and wireless devices, like on a desktop/lappy, it's even *more* unattractive.
or b) running something other then x86 hardware?
Who are you going to buy a CPU from in the last year that isn't x86_64? And what person who uses Xen in a datacenter (my point of reference for the ideal Xen user) environment isn't going to run x86_64 Linux on their hardware?
If the distro you use comes with Xen and management tools for Xen thenthat is probably the best option.All the distros with Xen hosting support are providing special kernels that have the giant patch sets applied to them.
I won't argue this point. I will say this: if the distro is confident enough to ship the software and is willing to support it with updates, then it is better to stick with what your distro supports then start mucking with your config and turn your machine into a "non-standard" box. I see quite a few people have trouble with linux because they start with a nicely built distro and the first thing they do is start pulling out tarballs of source and compiling software to install.
I completely agree. My simple point is that Xen is what it is: not quite there yet. You might have better luck with something far less complicated like KVM.
On Thursday 10 January 2008, Jason D. Clinton wrote:
As for virtualization, I would recommend KVM which is the accelerated code-base of QEmu. For example, you would modprobe -i intel-kvm and then run the same syntax as the earlier posted who used qemu. It requires that your processor has VT support.
The kqemu kernel module provides this with normal qemu, without CPU VT support.
First, I want to thank everyone for responding with ideas and suggestion here.
[warning lengthy post]
I've installed kqemu and installed my first VM. I't really quite fun. I went with kqemu, because it's got the acceleration for qemu. Everyone out there who has tested pretty much agree qemu is worthless without it. I am running on a Intel Centrino Core Duo T5300, not VT extensions so kvm is out (damn). This Intel replaces my old Dual Core Athlon64 which did have kvm support. FYI, for those using Intels, just having the right cpu isn't enough, you have to have the right chi[pset and be able to enable VT support from the BIOS. So HP laptops with Intel are going to be mostly out.
I plan on testing this one out for a few weeks, install KDE4 in it, and play some more. Install Windows in it and play briefly (I don't want to leave a 20GB file on my drive for too long).
Then I'm going to remove kqemu and install vmware. Rinse and repeat with some of the others.
So far, here's my take. It's a bit slow starting up, but once up it seems to be not too bad. The Mint installer has a bit of a flaky screen when going from text mode to X, but once it gets over that it displays fine. I also installed the graphical front-end to manage qemu. It has a bug in it. It has an option to create the image files to hold the VM, but it doesn't do it right. I had to open a console and use the command-line tool. Once that was done the gui tool worked fine. Next step setting up networking with it.
This looks like a really useful tool for a testbed. You could back up your entire VM by simply copying the file when it isn't running. Launch you VM and not have to worry about trashing your system. Very cool.
Set up was a breeze, just apt-get install. But I had to compile kqemu. I think I'll also have to add a startup script to create the /dev/kqemu device and modify the boot modules list.
Thanks, Brian
http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-4.0.php
There are some instructions here on a way to do what you want on Kubuntu. You can likely adjust for your distro of choice. Keep in mind this is ONE way to do it, as with everything in Linux there is more than one way to do it.
Brian K.
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Brian Kelsay -
D. Hageman -
Dave Hull -
djgoku -
Jack -
Jason D. Clinton -
Jon Pruente -
Luke -Jr -
Phil Thayer